Tuesday, August 07, 2007

Tango - Relaxed or Snobbish?

As a rule, different people will describe different milongas – ehm, differently; it depends on their point of view, their preferences, and also on the image they project and how they are perceived by their surroundings. That is clear. Therefore, the following speculations about the nature of the francophone vs. Dutch/Flemish tango communities are no more than that – subjective speculations. But even so:

I have been hearing, from several independent sources, sighs, complaints and assertions relating to the snobbery inherent to the Paris tango scene; I have also been hearing tangueros/as describe the (mostly) francophone Brussels tango community as ´pretentious and haughty´, especially in comparison to the Flemish tango community in Antwerp, and to the atmosphere of the Netherlands´ milongas, which are in general said to be very relaxed, easy-going and friendly.

Now, you can see the typical clichés: the easy-going Dutchman and the haughty Parisian (can be extended to all francophones, according to where you stand). But it so happens that I started dancing tango in Paris. Not taking lessons, I had done that for several months before that, but Paris is where I got really hooked, where I started attending milongas every night, or almost, where I became addicted to tango. I was a total beginner back then, so I didn´t get to dance with many hot shots of course, but I danced with intermediate to fairly good leaders, and danced enough to be able to improve quickly (and often more than my feet could take). Ok, I didn´t go to the Latina. But I went to other very nice places and I thouroughly enjoyed my tango début in Paris; I liked Paris, and I felt that the liking was mutual.

With Brussels it is similar; maybe I don´t notice anymore, I´ve been dancing there for so long, the milongas feel like home. There sure are some really good dancers who will hardly ever invite anyone who is not a great dancer and their friend to boot, but you have such people everywhere. But on the whole, I think the local tango scene is no more snobbish or pretentious than any other tango community in the world (let's face it, there will always be a tiny bit of pretentiousness about tango dancers – those people have put in a lot of hard work to become who they are, they won´t have that passed over lightly).

I have never danced in Antwerp, although I know some tango dancers from there; they say that the atmosphere there is very pleasant and relaxed, but they always hasten to add that the level of dancing is much lower than in Brussels. C. f. above.

And now I am dancing in the Netherlands. It is my second time after the Doble Ocho (I don´t count El Corte, because the chained salons are international really), and it basically confirms my earlier impressions. The Dutch are, indeed, very friendly and easy going, and the atmosphere at the milongas is very relaxed. It is so relaxed you could probably stand on your head in a corner and no one would be scandalized – they probably wouldn´t notice, and if they did, would dismiss it as insignificant. That´s something you learn quickly in a city like Amsterdam, and I own it is a quality I like very much. But when it gets to being invited by really good dancers – I don´t know. Maybe it just can´t be expected within a couple of days – all tango communities are have a fairly complex social structure, even those that appear to be quite open and unstructured at first sight, and it always takes some time to find your own place.

All this just to say that these generalizations shouldn´t be taken too seriously. The milonga environment is very complex and besides, one night may be completely different from another night...

However (now seriously) – some distinctions must be made.

THIS is elegant.



THIS, on the other hand, is sloppy!

8 comments:

Anonymous said...

I've been travelling in different cities/countries and experience milongas out there.

Some were more relax or snobbish than others but from my experience it is not always linked with the "openess of invitation".
You can find very casual looking milonga (e.g. 8 billards) were people almost never invite a foreigner and some very formal milonga were it is the opposite (e.g. le Latina).

Like you, my second observation is that the structure of milonga is quite complex and changing, some milonga could look relax and are not actually and the opposite (Buenos Aires is a good example of that kind of contrasts until you catch the mood).

Let me share one experience with you : I went to the Montreal festival this year, and I really feel that the very relax, easy going atmosphere of the 2005 festival was over. I recognized some of the dancers I danced with shared pleasure two years later and they ignored me. Invitation of good dancers was also more difficult. I think the reason is that they improve there level of dancing consequently the stake of dancing has changed. A hierarchy of dancers appears that didn't exist two years ago.

I won't be surprized if some of the flemish/dutch easy going milongas turn a bit more snobbish when they get to more experience dancers...

one2tango said...

There´s truth in these words, patadura:)
What you say about Montreal doesn´t sound very nice.. I have never been able to stand any hierarchies, though I am learning to accept this phenomenon in tango - you have no choice, it´s a social dance and if you want to dance, you must follow the rules.. and I love tango too much to give it up.
Just one more thing - don´t get me wrong, the level of dancing in the Netherlands is pretty high, although I hear that Amsterdam used to be a much better place for dancing a couple of years ago.

Maria said...

This is an interesting discussion... I, personally, found Paris quite difficult... I'm not sure I was there long enough to really get whether it was more snobbish than other places I've been to, but it was definitely hard to get dances because dancing couples were sticking with each other for many more tandas in a lot of other cities. This made the rotation not fluid enough and rose the stakes for the dance. Of course, people don't want to take the risk of being stuck with a bad dancer they don't know for too long... and hence this practice prevents leads from trying / asking out follows they haven't seen before...

I've also danced both in Nijmegen (Doble Ocho) and Amsterdam (Tango Magia), though not at truly "local" milongas. On this, I'll say, it always seemed easy to get dances from "out of towners" in both cases... Funny, in Amsterdam I danced with a lot of Dutch who were not from Amsterdam (as well as French and German and Italian), but not with true locals, who tended to behave much more choosy (and somewhat snobbish)...

Needless to say, in most cases, the "out of towners" were not hot shots who were already known... I think very recognized good dancers just find it very hard to take chances with someone new; and as long as they circulate in the local milongas, the environment is just bound to become more difficult... (even if the dancing will be, of course, so much nicer to watch!)

Anonymous said...

You're right - there's an element of snobbery in most tango scenes - and that seems to heighten along with the skill level of the dancers. I'm totally with Patadura - the Montreal tango festival this summer had turned off alot of people, even Montrealers too. It's too bad because there was a neotango festival last spring that was the total opposite experience, people were much more friendly and inviting.
About Paris - I am sorry to say that I've heard from several people who'd gone there to dance that it was indeed ridden with snobbery and furthermore - the french care very much about how they look and thus, don't wish to dance with anyone who's not absolutely perfect in technique and dress. Please don't shoot the messenger. It's just what I've heard from several sources. There are alot of French (as in from France) people living in my neighbourhood and the locals - French Canadians - don't appreciate how rudely they are being treated by French expats. There's quite a divide between the two. It's old news actually. One cannot help but wonder if the French have a sense of superiority to those outside of France. I don't know.

one2tango said...

Hey, thanks for your opinions on the matter!
Dear Tanguera, that´s exactly it - I have a very similar experience from the Doble Ocho, dancing predominantly with ´out of towners´ while the good dancers from Amsterdam are a relatively tight group..
Caroline, I see these clichés hold on both sides of the Atlantic;) but the thing is, in which tango community DOESN´T technique and dress matter? And that´s precisely why I started this discussion..
I must admit though that my different perception of Amsterdam and Paris milongas may be due to the fact that when I was a beginner my expectations weren´t so great, whereas now I have a much higher opinion of my dancing skills and don´t see why I couldn´t be dancing with the good leaders. Well, we shall see about that, I´ll be spending a weekend in Paris at the beginning of September and will certainly keep you posted;)

Anonymous said...

My sister, who just returned from 10 years in Marseilles has no idea what all this French snobbery is about- she doesn't suscribe to that school of opinion.
My other sister who went to Strasbourg University does.
Personally, I take pride in how I dress at milongas but people don't really raise an eyebrow or ignore a woman for wearing jeans. I'm happy to say that at least in Montreal, we care more about how our partners make us feel in tango than how we look. Thank god for that.

Anonymous said...

Wow, you're on fire! Three very good posts in almost no time, and the last one very succesfull too.
Congratulations! Your blog is officially part of the tango-blogs community :)

one2tango said...

Why, Tanguillo, it must be the Dutch climate:) No, it´s actually because I am on holiday and have much more time... the detrimental effect of work on one´s mental abilities is an interesting phenomenon - I´ll write a post about it, when I find out how exactly it relates to tango:)
But seriously - I am of course very pleased that people read my posts and react to them, also because I get feedback on stuff I am thinking about; and that´s why I blog - I don´t know about the others, but I started blogging about tango because there are things I would like to discuss with someone but sometimes can´t do so directly with fellow tangueros/as, because they are too sensitive issues, and talking about tango to non-tango people makes these doze off in about ten seconds (I speak from experience:)
So thanx a lot for your comments!